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Proposed change in CF tire spec for 2016
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keith hall



Joined: 19 Mar 2012
Posts: 43
Location: Arvada, CO

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:46 pm    Post subject: Proposed change in CF tire spec for 2016 Reply with quote

Chris Doyle has proposed the following changes in the CF regional rules for the 2016 season. He has requested that all CF participants vote yes or no on the addition of tires marked in red before Dec 22, 2015.
The current class rules appear in black type. Please give this rule change thoughtful consideration and post your response to this thread.

1. Definition
Club Ford is designated as a regional only class. Eligible Cars are Formula F cars manufactured prior to January 1, 1986. With the following exclusions: Swift DB-1 and Van Diemen RF85. Any Club Ford not in compliance with the above requirements must compete as a Formula F for the entire event. All Club Fords cars must comply with the SCCA rules applicable to Formula F in the current GCR.

2. Tires
Tires must be run in sets of 4 as stated below:

American Racer Formula Ford Tires: Compound 133
Front: 20.0 x 6.0-13S
Rear: 22.5 x 7.5-13S

Hoosier: R60A Compound
Front: PN: 43130, 20.0 x 6.0-13
Rear: PN: 43307, 22.5 x 7.2-13


Avon: A25 Formula Ford Spec.
Front: PN: 14297, 22.0 x 5.0-13
Rear: PN: 14298, 23.0 x 6.5-13


Wet compound tires are open.

3. Class Designation
All cars shall display CF as the class designation.

4. Majors Events
Club Fords may participate in Majors events as Formula F(s). The Club Ford class administrator (or his designated representative) will compile a unique finishing order of Club Ford compliant cars to the Division point’s keeper after each Majors event.

5. Administrator
Current class administrator is Chris Doyle. Contact Info: Ph.
303.940.1500 or Email. chris@surfaceexploration.com
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Keith Hall
CF #18


Last edited by keith hall on Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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keith hall



Joined: 19 Mar 2012
Posts: 43
Location: Arvada, CO

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:57 pm    Post subject: 2015 tire costs Reply with quote

To help in our decision on the addition of Hoosier and Avon tires to the CF spec I contacted George Ibbotson of Road Racing Services and ask him to estimate the current cost to me of each of the three tire choices. This is based on me delivering my race wheels to his shop in Englewood and returning to pick up the mounted and balanced tires. Here is his reply:

Avon
Front 14297 acb9 22x5-13 4/32 molded $259 ea.
Rear. 14298 acb9 23x6.5-13 4/32 molded $306 ea.
$1130.00 per set.
$53.00 taxes.
$100.00 freight.
$100.00 m&b
Total 2015 cost est, $1383.00 per set on the car.


Hoosier
Front 43130 20x6-13 R60A slick, $146.00
Rear 43307 22.5x7.2-13 R60A slick, $174.00
$640.00 per set.
$33.00 taxes
$90.00 freight
$100.00 m&b
Total 2015 cost est, $863.00 per set on the car.


American racer
Front 20x6-13 slick, 133 compound $115.00 ea.
Rear 22.5x7.5-13 slick, 133 compound 130.00 ea.
$490.00 per set.
$27.00 taxes.
$70.00 freight.
$60.00 m&b.
Total 2015 cost est, $647.00 per set on the car.


When considering a tire think about consistent supply during the season, inventories my dry up or order time my be delayed.
For this conversation I rounded off my figures to make the totals easy to under stand. At this time I can not give you 2016 pricing not published yet, I am expecting as of 1/1/16 a increase
of 6 to 8% in tire and freight cost in 2016
Any questions please call or email!


Thanks , George
Road Racing Services Inc
george@racetracktires.com
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Keith Hall
CF #18
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keith hall



Joined: 19 Mar 2012
Posts: 43
Location: Arvada, CO

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the last post to this thread I copied George Ibbotson's current quotes on our mounted costs of the three tires proposed for the CF spec.

The next obvious question is what is the relative performance differences in the tires?
Early in the 2015 season I was able to test the Hoosier R60 against the AR 133 mounted on my Panasport race wheels (thanks to Chris & Ron Doyle). I put 10 laps at HPR on the ARs followed by the same on the Hoosiers 20 mins later. Both sets of tires had around 10 heat cycles each. I found the Hoosiers to have a much firmer, more stable feel under hard braking and initial turn in. This led to later braking, higher corner speeds and earlier shifts accelerating away from the corners. I was immediately 2 sec per lap faster and I think there was at least 1 more second there as my braking points were getting closer to the turn in. I felt much more confident on the Hoosiers. I suppose that should not have surprised me since the Hoosiers have a wear rating of 60 vrs the ARs 90 and have a stiffer side wall.

From racing with the RMVR at their annual Kids Cancer Race the past three seasons I would say that the ARs and the Avons (the current RMVR favorite tyre) exhibit equal performance in a sprint race. It is possible that the Avons are a bit faster in the first couple of laps and the ARs maintain lap times better at the end. The lead pack stays pretty tight regardless of tire.

The other important consideration is tire life.
The ARs last about 15 heat cycles when they lose about 1 sec per lap at HPR. I use 2 1/2 sets of ARs in our season.
The Hoosiers likely last 15 heat cycles also. My only experience with Hoosier life is with a 911 and 15-17 heat cycles was maximum life.
The RMVR guys claim that the Avons last an entire season but they like to run at 80% with the intent of saving their FF. Someone like Jamie Stiehr would probably be able to answer this question.
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Keith Hall
CF #18
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Chris Doyle



Joined: 07 Jan 2003
Posts: 92
Location: Westminster, Colorado

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi All, The reason for the tire allowances is two things, First to allow the Hoosier an alternative to the American Racer, as shown a year ago there is no performance advantage. Second is the Avon as we the region is trying to entice the vintage racers to come join us we need to allow this to help facilitate this to make it happen. All of these allowances are to facilitate the fact that Formula F is now as of January 1, 2016 is on a Spec Hoosier radial tyre.
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Chris Doyle
Club Ford Class Administrator

Surface Exploration Ltd
Shop # 303.940.1500
Fax # 303.940.1509

www.surfaceexploration.com
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Wogrin's



Joined: 10 Jan 2015
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:48 pm    Post subject: CF tires Reply with quote

We understand the logic of including the Avons, welcoming the RMVR folks and making it easy for them run with us makes sense. However I feel that including more tire choices just creates a atmosphere we are trying to avoid.

We really have no problem with either the AR's or Hoosiers, we just feel that as a Club Ford series we should have 1 spec tire, we can happily allow the Avon if that allows more cars out at the races. In my opinion, if the class requires a spec tire, then improving lap times shouldn't be an argument, or concern. A tire that rewards good driving, and allows for the closest racing without breaking the bank has my vote.

Costs do matter to me a great deal so tire life, and not necessarily speed is of more importance to me. I'd like to see at least two weekends of racing with the tire, then the ability to give me at little practice life. So I guess as long as we all run the same tire with an allowance for Avons to welcome the the Vintage guys I'm good.

So I guess if we have to vote we would say ,Yes to allow Avon's
And No to the Hoosiers.

Respectfully Chris and Cam
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jthompson



Joined: 01 Apr 2014
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris-
The proposed new rule also includes a change in the years of car eligibility.
Is there a specific reason for this?
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vr0000m



Joined: 10 Jul 2004
Posts: 642

PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 6:56 am    Post subject: CF rules Reply with quote

Maybe it's just me, but I think 2 seconds a lap (for the Hoosiers) is a HUGE performance advantage!

Jim C.
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Chris Doyle



Joined: 07 Jan 2003
Posts: 92
Location: Westminster, Colorado

PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason for the year change is I have be contacted by a couple of different people with slightly newer cars. The one I've had the most contact with has an 84 Van Diemen.
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Chris Doyle
Club Ford Class Administrator

Surface Exploration Ltd
Shop # 303.940.1500
Fax # 303.940.1509

www.surfaceexploration.com
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keith hall



Joined: 19 Mar 2012
Posts: 43
Location: Arvada, CO

PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris,

You have a contact at Hoosier - what does he say about the supply of the R60s now that the FF1600 pro series and the FF class has gone to the radial tire? Will Hoosier continue to make the R60 or are they planning on letting it die after this year?
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Keith Hall
CF #18
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Chris Doyle



Joined: 07 Jan 2003
Posts: 92
Location: Westminster, Colorado

PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no plan for it to go away, as it is used by Club Fords in Central and on the east coast of the country.
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Chris Doyle
Club Ford Class Administrator

Surface Exploration Ltd
Shop # 303.940.1500
Fax # 303.940.1509

www.surfaceexploration.com
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